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Connections and school class size
Posted Monday, June 9, 2008, at 8:26 AM<< Previous | Read comments | Respond | Email link | Next >>
Everything is connected. The price of eggs in China does affect you here. Our student to teacher ratio affects class sizes. Our number of classrooms affects class sizes. Our funding affects class sizes. Lawsuits against the corporation that costs us money, which affects class sizes. Federal and state law and mandates affect class size. Rising costs for bus fuel and medical insurance for the employees affect class size.
The list goes on and on, but you could replace the phrase "class size" with the graduation rate, bus, employee salaries and benefits, curriculum or any other factor within our school corporation's operation. On the other side of the coin, everything our school corporation does affects our community, the students, their parents, and the taxpayers in both the present and the future. Everything affects everything else. The current and previously proposed building project does not add that many classrooms to our schools. There was little or no mention of class size during the public meetings. Most of the talk on the subject of the physical dimensions of the schools was in terms of square footage per student. This is one of the reasons I'm opposed to proceeding with the plan, which is basically one of those "all or nothing" deals where you do it all as stated or you do none of it. We should determine how many classrooms that we need from our current enrollment, plus the additional 160 elementary that the feasibility report projected we would add over the next six years. Then we need to build a few extra classrooms unless we want to run out of room in 10 years. Yet, we have budgeted to replace toilet fixtures that are working just fine solely because they are not new and doors that need only new handicapped accessible door handles to meet the requirements of law. Poppycock! Our corporation operates within an area that has one of the lower assessed values and one of the lowest tax levies for schools in the state. We have seven elementary schools, one junior-senior high school, one middle school, one high school, the alternative school, and the LEAAP Center for a total of 12 educational facilities that take money to staff and operate. We have the Bus Maintenance and Maintenance facility that becomes a wading pool when we get a hard rain and one bus garage that may leave with the next wind. We have our Central Office in a century old museum to how education looked near the beginning of the last century. I am a bit glad that it is where it is, although it may be hard for people to find. We have a bus fleet of about 75 buses that run over 3,500 miles a day at an expense of about $10,000 with fuel at almost $4 a gallon, in fuel every 10-11 days of operation just to get our students to these schools. According to the school corporation, most of our students start Kindergarten behind their peers, requiring more staff man-hours to get them read for first-grade. Then we have the socio-economic problem that everyone tiptoes around. At the risk of being called politically-incorrect, I'll just state the fact. We have a higher than average number of poor and working-poor people in our school corporation's area. We have about 30 percent of our students receiving free meals and another 13 percent receiving meals at a reduced rate due to their parent's income level. It is difficult to worry about what your children are doing in school when you are worried about what they are going to eat, if you are going to have utilities, or if you are going to be able to pay the rent next month. I know how it feels because I was in the same boat between the time I became disabled and the time the paperwork was approved for me to receive my VA and Social Security Disability. I went through four rough years while my son was in elementary school. But we have many people who have no light at the end of the tunnel, they are going to struggle all of their lives. Their children are the ones that are going to need the most help to get a diploma. Money is a problem for our school corporation. What good is a classroom without a teacher to teach the class? Mike Fowler's projection at the March board meeting was that, in 21 months, we would be trying to hire teachers at a starting rate of pay that would just match their contribution for insurance if they insured their families. Would you work for that? Ninety-five percent of our General Fund is going for employee salaries and benefits while the state average is 85 percent. We are spending most of our Capital Projects Fund to shore up our General Fund just to maintain our current level of service. We cannot do that indefinitely under current law. Our school board meetings have devolved to having one of two themes, "We are doing great teaching our students," and "We need money but we don't see it coming." This is why I keep asking the questions about how the money is being spent. Yet, given an excess of money, there isn't a person on Earth that cannot always find a way to spend all of it and more to boot. Some people say that they want to provide the services that students have in other schools like swimming pools or an auxiliary gym for Northview. How many of the students that fail to graduate our schools do you think those items or replacing working toilet fixtures will help to earn a diploma? Some people say that we should pour $11 million into two of our existing elementary schools because the parents of the students do not have transportation. That doesn't appear to have any bearing on the fact that those same students will later attend North Clay and Northview. Perhaps, parental involvement is only important in elementary school or maybe that is why students fail to graduate more at Northview than at Clay City. How will those parents get out to North Clay or Northview if they want to? I figured out a truism about people years ago, that is, if someone wants to do something, they will do it. If they don't want to do something, they will find an excuse. The current plan is to match Jackson Township Elementary School's 147-square footage per student in all of our elementary buildings despite the fact that the source (http://www.peterli.com/pdfs/SPMConstruction2007.pdf, Table 5) used by the architect to sell the project to the public says that the average square footage per student of new elementary schools being built is only 124-square foot per student for our region and the median average enrollment is 550 students. Every square foot costs over $50 to renovate. The decision of the school corporation has come down to spend $11 million on these two buildings, yet Avon, built a new elementary school, Cedar Elementary, that opened last year, for $18 million that has more than 600 students. Renovation staves off replacement, but not indefinitely. We have seven elementary buildings built between 1954 and 1965. You pick a time span to use as the service life of a school building. Add that to the construction dates of our buildings and tell me, don' they all come due for replacement within 11 years of each year? Do you foresee our school corporation changing so much that replacing them all within that time span will ever be feasible? What generation is going to get stuck with that task if we do not start soon? Will it be your children or your grandchildren? Some people say that smaller schools educate better. About half of the research agrees with them while the other half says that school size has little bearing on education. Looking at the data available from the Indiana Dept. of Education website, I see elementary schools larger than ours that achieve almost identical academic results when they are comparable in factors other than their size. Schools such as Sullivan Elementary (691 students), Linton-Stockton Elementary (760 students) and Spencer Elementary (693 students) are so comparable to our elementary schools that I have to agree that school size has little bearing on the quality of education. Buildings do not teach, the human factor is the most important factor in education. Always has been, always will be! Class size is a different issue altogether. The National Education Association states the case very clearly; class size is linked to learning (http://www.nea.org/classsize/index.html). It is common sense the most time the teacher has with each student, the most the student can learn. The NEA recommends that class size be limited to 15 students for regular classes and less for students with exceptional needs. Our corporation has a student to teacher ratio of about 17.5:1, but that doesn't tell the whole story. We also have those classes like French IV with one student and one teacher and Dance with nine students and one teacher that skew the ratio to the point where you cannot tell from the student to teacher ratio if you have the right ratio in our elementary schools or the critical Core 40 classes that are required for a diploma. The big question is how can we reduce class size without teachers and classrooms. We cannot! I can fully understand why parents at Jackson Township Elementary are concerned about the projected sizes of the starting Kindergarten classes. But the problem goes a lot deeper. Everyone gets concerned when they see something that they believe will affect their own child, even when it happened before to someone else's child. This is the problem that I wish the public would become aware of and take steps to change. That is why I'm active in trying to delay that building project until enough people get involved to research the data, determine just what our students need to succeed, and then determine how we need to change our buildings to meet our student's educational needs to the limit of our finances. You make the building fit the process, but you have to know what the process needs before you can do anything. Imagine moving your kitchen to your living room. I'll bet your living room has neither the 200-volt outlet for your electric range (the plumbing for gas if you have a gas range) or the plumbing for a sink. Basically, we need to take an in-depth look at the operation of the school corporation from top to bottom. We need to see just what is needed that will educate our students to the point of receiving the diploma and keep it. We need to see what can be added that has proven to be effective in improving the potential for education in schools. We need to eliminate what is wasteful. We need to protect what funding we have by reducing the possibility of legal liabilities by policy and during our renovation or building projects. We need to insure that every dollar is spent with education, not cosmetic attractiveness of the building or someone's idea of what is needed, as the basis of the expenditure. We need to reduce our costs and/or find more revenue. The "we" that I'm talking about is not just the employees of the Clay Community Schools Corporation. It is not just the members of the school board. I cannot tell you who the "we" is, but they say that a picture is worth a thousand words. I'll give you a picture of the "we" I speak of as needing to do these things. Go and look in the mirror! Comments Showing most recent comments first [Show in chronological order instead] |
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Hide behind words
Hang your head in shame
The contest continues but with another NAME!
Cheaters never prosper
So, you are interested in Haiku??? I prefer traditional Japanese Haiku. It's been a busy day, so this is the best I can do on such a short notice:
We hide behind words
never revealing our name,
the game continues.
where has bigpappy gone? I thought you might have a haiku for me.
Wonderful creative writing unoit!!!
credit where credit is due
Take time each day for some fun
Life's too short bar none
These is a deep ocean for sure. I have read Leo's 1952 words three times and still sit in wonder ... I wonder what the heck I can do to change the price of eggs in China so that we can better educate our kids in Clay County.
I woke up this morning with a feeling of dread ... the eggs in China are affecting my sleep. I calmed myself and slowly began drifting back to sleep...
Give me credit...unoit! I had that figured out months ago. I must say that I like it, too!
Games make living fun!
Thank you for letting me play the "reindeer games"!
U No It!
-- Posted by Bigpappy on Thu, Jun 12, 2008, at 12:40 PM
LOL, you figured it out.
I think sassypants was a lurker and now wants to come out and play, lol. Welcome all!!
I just found out about this fun game and am learning to play it!
Sassypants....HP or HN? Surely, you readeth too much in to things. I don't recall "outing" an HP. I do remember asking madmom if she ran for School Board. She told me no, so that would have excluded HP or HN. I did tell madmom at that time that I had thought she was HP or HN, but that's it. Never outed a soul. I have merely told madmom that I THOUGHT I knew who she was, and therefore, disagreeing/bantering with her wasn't so comfortable any more. That's it in a nutshell.
Now, I'm wondering why I haven't read many posts from you....Hm-m-m-m-m-m.
U No It!
Leo.. write a new one! You get more hits than any of the other news stories? Talk to us about the library!
The suspense is killing me! for the rest of us we will just have to continue to wonder.
Absolutely! I am not ashamed or embarrassed of my thoughts, etc. It's just that I'm smart enough to know how not to get burnt in the "system"!
Keep in mind, I was really sure I knew who you were due to the BS degree and experience in special services. Plus, you seem to know MUCH about ESE and ME. When you shared about the internet stalking, I REALLY felt sure I knew. But, you made a comment that was either to throw me off or to reveal that I was way off target.
Feel free to email me at Bigpappy3@verizon.net if you'd like more information. I don't want to "hang myself" by sharing more.
I do think we are really on the same side of the fence, perhaps even more on school size than you think.
I stand corrected. He did go to Van Buren.
Since you seem to know who I am, will you tell me if we are face to face, who you are?
You were not afraid to out HN or HP! Why not put the same out there for you as you do to others? Isn't that the golden rule :)
The board member's child I'm thinking went to VBE and then transferred to ME. Perhaps there have been more children of board members changing schools, but the one I'm thinking of was changed because of what he considered a "labeling" issue and reading groups.
I have no problem revealing my identity to you, but I prefer the whole world not know it because of reprisals....if you get my drift!.....Although the guessing game helps to break the summer monotony.
If you don't work at ESE then how do you know about this child and the fact that they changed schools???
I am not basing it on what grade you teach. I am basing it on the clues you have given out!
What makes you think I'm a fifth grade teacher at ESE?
Then you are EP
madmom....I'll help you out a bit. I'm not FG who did teach in Savannah. I do know her, however.
And it is my understanding that this board member has now taken his child out of the corporation all together. That is not widely talked about. I am guessing that he got special treatment because his grandfather and father both have board member status. And you are right... you can't rock the boat there or bad things will come to you!! :)
Bigpappy... you never talked about teaching in Savannah online :>... 2 can play your game! haha
Leo... Are you putting your personal info on here in hopes of getting the signatues you need for your petition drive? Is that above board???
FlyinLion...I know you are smart enough not to believe everything the school board member told you about his son's situation. There was much more to that than he probably shared. I know that situation well. Yes, the child did better when he changed schools, but one needs to understand the "political" aspect of it. When a board member is unhappy with a teacher/principal, then the chosen building principal will do everything in his/her power to be sure that child is successful. It's called job security. Understanding the power trip some board members tend to take, it's not wise for teachers and principals to rock the boat. The teacher and principal involved in this situation were dealing with him before he became a board member. His father was a member of the board at that time.
madmom..........Savannah???? Don't think I ever mentioned teaching in Savannah, now did I? However, I do have relatives in the South, and their school issues go far beyond class size.....but that's a whole other story!
There is no doubt in my mind that we agree much more than we disagree! I do believe my age and experience in the field tends to give me an edge on most of the educational issues, however, some would argue that.
That is what I meant about the can of worms. It would go on forever and ever and give parents many avenues that might not to be driven on! I know people already change around classrooms and schools. I guess it is a personality thing.
Bigpappy... how long did you teach in Savannah? I would think that the schools and class size there was huge and without parental support.
You and I agree on many things... disagree on a few as well. I think we both want good strong skills for the kids and small class size. We just disagree on school size.
unoit - According to the data, 89% of our graduates go on to college. After college, the "brain drain" kicks in and many leave the area. The ones that stay go to work.
The ones that don't graduate go to work if they can find a job and have the motivation to do that. The ones that lack incentive become "couch potatoes" on their parent's couch or worse.
Perhaps the GQE should be offered year-round at various locations as is the GED and driver's license testing. As you said, testing at one point in time is not a good indicator for many reasons.
Laughingly, we agree on a lot and disagree on a little. After all, we live here as opposed to anywhere else in the world, but we aren't forced to live here.
Madmom 61 - People already change classrooms (and even schools) on the basis of personalities. One of the former school board members told me that he changed schools for his third grader because the school told him they couldn't help the boy. That was pure personality on the part of the school as the student succeeded elsewhere. Someone did not apply themself to teaching for some reason.
My point in the previous comment was that if graduation depended solely on the decision of the teacher, you would see a lot more of these changes, mostly based on hearsay or gossip. It would be like some of our sports programs. "I didn't get to play "graduate" because the coach "teacher" didn't like me." Then the parents become involved in conflict with the school "coach".
hey Leo, Glad you are back, I love these discussions.
Pearl2083 is talking about infrastructure over on the "where do your taxes go" article.
I have often wondered what happens to hundreds of kids who graduate each year. Where do they work? We really do need to put some money into the town and attract some new business'. This town could have everything that Terre Haute offers and more. With the gas prices going up, we all need to do our shopping locally.
Testing...At the beginning of each year, weeks are spent teaching kids what will be on the test. What if the child didn't feel well or had a death in the family? How is 1 test a good indicator of that child's knowledge. There has to be a better way.
See FlyinLion we can agree on some things. It's a great day.
If parents start changing classrooms based on personalities, then you are going to have a mess. Personalities come into play and MAN O MAN what a can of worms that opens up!
As for the testing... I agree that I do not like ISTEP either. I do however like the state money coming in and the 2 seem to go hand in hand.
I do like NWEA. I think that is the test you were referring to earlier. It measures a child against themselves and is a great tool to show what progress has been made.
unoit - Your comment that we need to teach the students instead of teaching to the test is right on the money! The problem is that the bean-counters would have no one to blame if we do not test. How would you award a diploma? Is simply showing up enough to qualify? If you go on class grades alone, then it is up to the teacher alone. At that point, you would have parents arguing with teachers and all kinds of conflict.
I don't like the "standardized" testing such as the GQE and ISTEP, either. They are an indication as to whether the student learned what was on the test, not an evaluation as to whether the student learned anything or the sum of the students total knowlege. They do serve a purpose, basically a way to keep score.
I think a bit differently about the adaptive test that adjusts itself according to the student's answers. I do not recall the name, but I think it is a better indicator of progress than the ISTEP or the "pass/fail" of the GQE.
madmom61 - As to Jackson Township being a "model" school or a "model" school even existing, I have my doubts. I know of children who were moved out of Jackson because the were falling behind their classmates. They are doing fine elsewhere. Buildings do not teach. Of course, just changing classrooms may have been the solution, if you have multiple classes at the same grade level. I don't know if the parents and school tried that first.
Small Schools from goodsmallschools.org
C. C. Blaney Elementary, Elgin, SC
Enrollment: 593 Grades: PK-5
Note: PACT scores lower than our ISTEP if that indicates a lower acheivement level due to differences in testing???
http://ed.sc.gov/topics/researchandstats...
Camino Nuevo Charter Academy, LA,CA
Elementary
En: 257 Grades PK-3
Middle School
En: 294 Grades 4-8
Total En: 551 in grades PK-8
Interdistrict Downtown School
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Students: 500
Grades: K - 12
********* IF WE COULD AFFORD THIS FOR ALL OF OUR STUDENTS, I'D BE FOR IT!
Laurel Concord Public School
Location: Laurel, Nebraska
Elementary Students: 193
High School Students: 195
Grades: PK - 12
********* SAME AS ABOVE COMMENT
Oak Valley Public School
Location: Oak Valley, Nebraska
Students: 30
Grades: K - 8
******** ??? One room schoolhouse??
The STAR School
Location: Flagstaff, Arizona
Students: 65
Grades: K - 8
******** TWO room schoolhouse???
So much for that, if we are going to do something that we cannot afford, we may as well start home-schooling right now.
That's the problem with research, unless you read the entire thing, you don't know what you are looking at and if it is comparable to your situation.
The headline stories today underline the problem. The bulk of our tax dollars spent locally goes into the school corporation, but it isn't enough money to provide the educational effort needed to pull enough of our impoverished students out of the cycle of poverty. One item I haven't heard about during school board meetings is the number of 2nd or 3rd generation children of parents who failed to complete high school.
Once we get the students to complete high school, where do they work? Most of our labor force works to the East or West of Brazil because there just aren't enough jobs here. As we are exceeding the state average percentage of expenditure on our schools, while paying fewer dollars due to lower assessed value and tax levy, we do not have very much money left in the county budget to improve infrastructure to attract commerce.
Many of residents of this area in the generations before us worked the mines, the brick factories, or small farms in the area. Higher education was not required to make a living, although, as always, the more you learned, the more you earned. The "face" of Clay County has changed. Jobs for the person without a high school diploma are virtually non-existent. When people don't have the education to afford the means to work in Vigo or Putnam counties, they end up living on the dole. They may end up turning to drugs or booze in an attempt to revieve their bordom or frustration. They may well try to improve their education level. They often have children, in wedlock and out, because sex is cheap entertainment. But everything they do ends up being paid for by someone else.
The situation hasn't changed much in the last fifty years. Owen and Greene counties face the same challenges. We, in the Clay Community Schools Corporation, have the opportunity at this time to impact our situation when we do a building project that we are needing. What is currently planned does very little other than fix the buildings and maintain the current situation and, even with that, doesn't cut costs within the corporation to a point where it can maintain the current level of service for the foreseeable future without some major changes.
I am of the opinion that we need to do something different. Lack of available employment was on one of my considerations when I joined the Marines in 1973 and left the county for almost 20 years. I returned because Clay County is HOME. I found that the situation is still the same. I have no illusion that what we do to our schools is going to change the situation even in the next decade, but continuing to do the same things that we have been doing for the last fifty years isn't going to change the situation at all, ever.
If we do change, the students now attending our schools are not going to reap the all of the benefits, it will be the children who start in the new system. Those now attending will get some benefit, but not the full impact. If we can cut the class size in elementary, the consensus of the research is that there is a benefit to education. If we have to put more smaller classes into a larger elementary school to be able to afford the teacers and classrooms, the consensus of the research does not clearly indicate that that would be detrimental to education. Based on what I have seen, that appears to be what we need to do taking into our financial situation and available assets.
Yes, our teachers need to be able to teach to the students, and not teach to the tests.
We are both in agreement concerning the texting and computer lingo. I now see such "language" being used in written work. The students do not know when its use is appropriate and when it isn't. However, most of my day is spent correcting simple grammar usage errors such as; using "me" in the subject of a sentence, using "seen" for "saw", and using "was" for "were", etc. I don't blame that on technology, but cell phone texting and the use of IM definitely have created a whole new monster.
I did attend one of those small school houses in the country, but it wasn't a one-room school. I do believe the majority of the students left the school with strong academic skills; however, I'm not willing to say it was directly because of the small class size. I will admit that with two grades in one room, I was able to glean knowledge from listening in as the teacher was instructing the grade ahead of mine while my grade was supposed to be doing our assignments (seatwork). I believe the reason most of us country kids did so well was because our parents DEMANDED that we do so. Alas, times have changed, and those days are gone. I don't think returning to class sizes of 10 and 12 is feasible.
I will agree with you on your comment concerning a need for more intimate setting to allow teachers to teach rather than doing crowd control. I feel, however, that teachers are the key to making that happen....unless, of course, one teaches where class size is nearing the 30 mark or beyond! Although I do recall a time when I had 36 students who fared better in all aspects than a year when I had 17 students. There was more parent support with the 36 than with the 17 which made all the difference in the world.
I've always said if the "powers that be" would just let teachers teach what needs to be taught in the way that works for the students, then the world would be a better place. But, unfortunately, too much emphasis is placed on test scores.
I am glad to hear that you are indeed helping to educate our youth. I believe the problem with poor grammer and language lies in the fact that in this nation we did not "catch up" to the technology soon enough. We did not teach our kids how to use proper grammer on computers, cell phones etc. The texting and instant messaging is in code. Back in my day poor grammer and language would not be the norm. If as a nation we had gotten computers to the classroom and students sooner, it could have been part of the learning process. After all almost everything is done on a computer anymore and I rarely see a teen without a cell phone. One more thing on that.. I have noticed as of late that alot of the kids do not understand proper inflection of words. Maybe they have not been read to or had enough conversation.(like I said it is all texting and IMing).
I agree with you that class size is an important issue, but I feel like it goes along with small school. Smaller schools - smaller class size. I have heard of a time when there were schools in many neighborhoods and the of course the little one room school house in the country. Those schools produced many knowledgeable people, some that you might know or might have known. We need to stop trying to mass market education and get back to a more intimate setting that will allow the teachers to teach instead of doing crowd control.
unoit....I stand firm on my comment about posters butchering the English language. I don't think it takes that much time to reread what is typed before posting; however, the problem lies in the fact that most making such gross errors probably lack the ability to proofread. As far as wondering what I do to help, I've dedicated my life to doing exactly that. You see, I am a teacher of English employed by Clay Community Schools. I have made it a top priority of mine that students be proficient in speaking and writing English! I've even worked above and beyond my "paid" time to assist. I cannot control the poorly spoken grammar students are saturated with at home and throughout our community, so a good deal of my effort is in vain.
I totally agree with you concerning finding research to fit an agenda. It's done all of the time by all sorts of people and organizations. The reason I didn't present any "proof" to madmom was not because I couldn't find any. I could have chosen test scores from the "larger" elementaries in the Corporation; however, I chose not to because I'm not sure I understand the definition of "large" and "small" in these posts. Besides, I do not advocate either large or small schools. My position is and always has been about class size. My experience in the classroom is all the proof I need.
And you made a comment I need to comment on.
Don't you think Jackson Township is the model school now? Isnt one of the reasons for this renovation equality for all schools?
So, if they make all schools equal, then Eastside would be a model school as well as the other ones in the county. We would be an equal county!!!
"You asked for proof as to why I thought "large" was what we needed. I will give you no proof"
HAHA
That is good! There is some hard core evidence for you to study!!
sadly you can find just about any reasearch to fit your agenda. As to giving credence to any particular group, I refer to the Bill Gates site that I have posted before. He puts his money where his mouth is. No agenda, just a desire to build back our education system using his own money. Quality of the classroom and family support are a couple of ways that enhance education but what about community involvement? I have seen comments on the Times site before about people butchering the english language and it did bother me, I was wondering what the people who make these comments are doing to help the people who are "butchering". I hope they are volunteering in adult literacy programs or tutoring out youth.
I know I sound very extreme in that staement but if you choose to not finish school and not take advantage of GED and other adult ed classes , then I do not feel that I should have to pay for you to sit at home. I know children would suffer. That is the problem.
I just think if we make it harder to quit school and offer as many other classes as possible, then the drop out rate might go down!
And as for ADA compliance, I feel sure that the new buidling will be up to code on all. In this day and age we strive tomake things better for those with disabilities. I am sure these remodeling projects are thought through
bigpappy-you must move around in the site. anywhere your curser changes to a hand you can click on it. the first site gives many research reports.
http://www.goodsmallschools.org/
on this site you can highlight on the left a number of elementary schools and read the research. I hope you find it enlightening.
Madmom61 - The schools are not solely to blame for the drop out rate. They cannot stop someone for dropping out, they can only try to convince them not to. I think there is plenty of evidence available that "the more you learn, the more you earn." Education, to a certain point, is already a matter of law. You must, however, realize that our society contains people that cannot reach the level of education required for our diplomas. There are also people who cannot reach that level in the time frame of high school, although they attain it later. Then you have the ones who choose not to. They are the one's that irritate me.
Would you remove government assistance for failure to have an education? Think about that and observe that many of these students with low income have parents with low education. Do we punish these students for their parent's faults? They suffer already.
LOL, you all seem to understand my dilemma.I do not prefer larger schools, but I see a financial need to reduce the number of facilities. I can see, from available research and current data, that larger elementary schools CAN produce the same results that we are getting. High schools are a different story all together. Elementry education is based in one classroom, high school is based around several with periodic movement. Mostly, when an elementary class moves from room to room, it moves as a group. High school classes move in a more chaotic fashion as each student has their own schedule to follow.
As far as the timeline for planning and research, it is one of my problems with the project. In the last ten months, I have found so many unanswered questions that I have openly asked at meetings that I am in doubt that just what we need or can do for our schools was researched at all. The most reliable information as to our needs that is listed in the project is what is needed to repair the buildings structurely and to comply with the ADA. It doesn't seem today or during the public meetings that any research was done as to how to best address the needs of the students. Many arguments were made by people that we need to do this or that for their own reasons, yet no one offered any studies or data to back up their opinion.
It seems that we, the people who have written comments and I, have done more research on this than the people who planned the project.
I can understand that when you read enough studies, you will find conflicts in the findings. That is why I give more credence to the recommendations of national groups than I do to the findings specific studies. For instance, carpet in schools. the rug manufactures recommend it as a dust "trap" and cite a study done in, I think, Sweden and one that they paid for in Georgia where they determined a cleaning method to reduce pollen and dust in the air. The American Association of School Administrators recommends that carpeting be removed from schools, based on research on indoor air quality by the EPA, the absentee rate of students attributed to asthma and other respirtory ailments, and research and recommendations of the AMA. When I stated that at the last public meeting on the school project, one of the architect firm's people made a point to inform me that the paint and carpet used would have the lowest VOC rating possible. I looked at him and said that it wasn't the VOC's that were the problem, that can be reduced by simply letting ventilating the building for 72 - 96 hours to allow the VOC's to dissipate, it was about the dust and pollen that accumulates in carpet that was stirred up by walking when you do not clean it throughly on a regular, frequent basis. We do not have the equipment that the rug manufactures recommend be used, the school involved in their study only has that equipment because the manufactures gave it to them after the study. We do not have the staff to vacuum the carpet with the woof, across the woof, then against the woof on a weekly basis as the manufacturers recommend. We sweep the carpets bi-weekly, as I understand from one of our housekeeping staff, unless otherwise required and then it is a once over. That is why I questioned the use of carpet in our schools.
We need to do something with our schools, but, before we do, let's actually take a look at the situation. We need to network across the county, with the school corporation,and define the situation. Then we need to see what is within our means to improve the schools based on the recommendations. this simply was not done in the depth that it should have been done given the magnitude of the impact on our students and the community that our schools have and that this opportunity is fleeting. Then and only then do we need to consult the architect.
My greatest disappointment is that all of that should have been accomplished in the last three years instead of "I think we need this, let's do it." The $53 million dollar project that was proposed should not have been 15 - 20 pages of pictures, it should have been over 100 with this is what we need because of these reasons. We, the corporation, gave the architect a bunch of garbage and they gave us back a very professional piece of garbage that I have spent the past few months pointing out the absurdity of and a few of the glaring flaws in reasoning contained within.
I have angered some of the school corporation officials by asking simple questions such as "If the problem is with the metal pipes to the bathroom fixtures, why have they not been replaced by maintenance on an "as needed" basis?" No answer to that and many more of the same type. It took almost 6 months to get an answer to my question as to the ages of our elementary school buildings and I'm still waiting for some kind of projected replacement date. I had a board member tell me that, if it were within their power, Eastside would become a "showcase". That person was silent when I asked why one group of students should have a better facility than the rest. I had a school official call me up to take a look at the bus and maintenance facility. I went and had the tour but his reason was to ask me to cease my opposition because, if the project didn't go through, there was no way he could proceed with a plan to replace that facility with CPF monies because the "public won't let us invest in support facilities instead of the schools." We can't afford to use the CPF to build anything as long as we have to use it to pay utilities and insurance that should come out of the General Fund. Both of our support facilities are in need of replacement, but the needs of our schools are so costly that it isn't possible unless we step back and rethink just what we need and do that in the most cost effective manner possible.
madmom....I'm not sure we are "disagreeing" on the same issue. You keep talking about small schools, but what student population are you using when referring to that? Also, you said I was in favor of large schools. Again, what are you considering large?
You asked for proof as to why I thought "large" was what we needed. I will give you no proof. I can say only this: It's not the size of the school that makes the difference. It's the quality of the classroom instruction and family support that enhances education. In all honesty, it really doesn't make a bit of difference in the size of the school when those two factors are top notch and constant. I know that from experience.
unoit....forgive me, but I need further guidance from you. Please direct me to the specific area on that site so I can read what you've found. My brain must have been affected by all the rain, and I can't seem to find the studies on small elementary buildings. So, if you'd be so kind as to be more specific, I'll be glad to read on since I have extra free time today. Maybe my mindset can be changed. I'm open to new information....if I can find it.
bigpappy- If you would have read the site carefully you would have seen that the data included elementary as well as high schools. What you asked for was data and that is what I posted.
I want small class size as well. I just want a small school to back it up. Why do you think big schools are thebest? What proof is there that this is what we need??
madmom....Did you read the entire article concerning Florida's new small school law? If so, you would note that one part of the law is to assure that elementary school sizes remain "small"......"An elementary school with a student population of not more than 500 students". As I have said over and over, our corp. could combine at least two of the elementaries to meet the needs of the students AND taxpayers. Not ONE of our elementary schools has a student population of 500 students (small by Florida law). Also, if you read the section in the article concerning Vermont schools, you will find the majority of the areas studied showed NO major differences. Check out the percentages and the "Y" and "N" notations. The findings in that study were on REALLY small schools (100 students or less in grades K-6)....now THAT IS WHAT I CALL SMALL! Is that what you think is good for our county?
unoit.....if you would have read my earlier post carefully, you would have noticed that I really didn't need to reread the article on small high schools. That is not an issue that I have strong feelings on one way or another, and you won't find me in agreement or disagreement on that subject.
I am not opposed to small class sizes. Small class size is usually the best case scenario for ultimum learning. I say usually because I have seen students from large classes/schools score higher on state and local tests than those from small classes/schools. I simply want the best for our children while getting the most bang for our bucks!
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/UnitedSta...
Small Schools
One of the most effective ways to improve student achievement and curb school violence is to reduce the size of the nation's schools. Hundreds of studies have found that students who attend small schools outperform those in large schools on every academic measure from grades to test scores. They are less likely to dropout and more likely to attend college.
Small schools also build strong communities. Parents and neighbors are more likely to be actively involved in the school. The students benefit from community support and the school in turn fosters connections among neighbors and encourages civic participation.
taken from
http://www.newrules.org/equity/smallscho...
Look at any of the small private parochial schools.
Please give me the proof....data....that supports the theory that teachers do not know the kids or the families in a larger school, that families do not feel the connection to the school and its staff, and that you "just do not get the same thing from large schools". If you can show me that, then maybe you can change my thoughts. I'm an avid reader and researcher, and I have yet to find that kind of proof. Please don't give me the website about smaller high schools. I've been there before many times and done plenty of reading and disecting of that information. I'm not in total disagreement there, but I still have difficulty understanding the concern of elementary buildings with more than two classrooms per grade level. I have friends who teach in small schools half the size of our city schools with more students in their classroom than we have here in Clay County. Do you honestly feel those students are getting a better education that those at schools where class size is kept near 20 students? I would venture to bet those teachers know less about their students and students' families than the teachers in Clay County do.
At what point do the parents assume responsibilty for their kids dropping out? I do not think this is to blame on the schools.
I would love to see a study done that is across the board on lower income families and drop out rates. If education was required to recieve any type of federal or state aid, then the problem might correct itself.
I want small schools. I like the environment that it produces. I want the teachers to know the kids, know their families and let these families feel the connection to the school and it's staff. It is just not the same in a big school. People can show me whatever data they want. You just do not get the same thing from large schools.
I also am not understanding why now that all the studies have been done, the facts gathered and the board voted... Why now is it time to look into this? Shouldn't that have been done during the planning stages???
Oh... and welcome back Leo. It is good to have something to argue about! :)