Respectfully...

What Items do you feel we are spending dollars on that have little educational value??

Perhaps you should call your plan "The SafeAuto Plan," minimum coverage for less.

Leo... Here is your direct quote...

"We are spending education dollars on things that have little educational value while failing to spend money on things, like teachers, that have high educational value. We need to change."

I am simply asking you to expand on what you feel has little educational value.

Not a detailed list of every single thing. Just in general where you feel we are wasting money

We all know that you oppose the building program as it was presented. What else?

Not trying to put you on the spot but when you make a definitive statement you should back it up.

Actually, Anodos, I call what we need "Maximum Education At Minimum Cost."

Last year, Clay Community Schools Corporation had an average expenditure of over $7,000 dollars per student from all funds. Within the corporation we had one student take French IV and nine students take Dance at a cost of over $20,000 in teacher's salary alone for these two classes alone. (These figures are lower than the actual DoE figures in the database, which I cannot access at this time.) These classes are "wants" not needs as they earned two credits towards a diploma but are not required courses for any of our offered diplomas. The credits could have been earned in other courses with higher student participation that makes the courses more cost effective. The corporation "explained this away" by saying that Dance and French IV were taught in conjunction with other classes by the teacher of the other class, yet accounted for the expenditure. I know enough about accounting to know that listing credits or debits not actually made is bad practice, therefore, the corporation's explanation or accounting is false as they do not agree. Which way do you think the manure is flying?

Meanwhile, at the other end of the education process, we had uncertified personnel teaching classes at Clay City Elementary and large elementary classes. We "shorted" students by not providing what they needed but gave other students what they did not need. Our average annual teacher's salary is about $42,000. Uncertified personnel generally would be lower. Using an elementary class of 25 and the average salary as an example, when you divide 42,000 by 25 you get $1680 per student in teacher's salary alone. Using the class size recommended by the U.S. Department of Education for K-3 of 18, the teacher's salary per student we should be spending is $2,333.

The Indiana Constitution lays the burden of providing an education for students on the taxpayer. That education is defined in the law or in Indiana Department of Education Documents. The taxpayer is not bound by law to pay for anything more. Yet the taxpayer across the state, undoubtedly, pays more taxes than what the laws require. Part of the reason is that it is traditional, like the basketball court in the gym and running the lights for extra-circular activities. Another part is a lack of knowledge, because a taxpayer who knows how much he has to spend to fulfill his lawful obligation is not going to want to foot the bill if he could compare that figure to what he is paying………….lol!

ok i wil go into more detail about what i was saying above, i do not want to name a school as they know me there and they already do not like my opinions but i volunteered quite a bit of last year only to see several empty class rooms being used a storage and for being a rural school(HINT HINT)they had to many kids to a class room and the students that needed more help and attention for any reason were the kids that got lil to no help because the teacher had to many kids per class with lil help other than volunteers such as me. I have seen first hand what heppens in our schools and there are lots of great teachers who struggle to be able to help the ones who need it more. Yes this year they have switched teachers around to make not as many per class in my childs school but there are still a high number with not much help. On the help subject The children who are supposed to get special services do not because the school puts it on an as needed basis and since they do not properly monitor the kids they just dont work with them at all(i mean special services other than speech) I know this firsthand. I truely belive the school system has their priorities backwards its kids first then other things. They give poor kids with no lunch money plain peanut butter sandwhiches while the rest eat regular lunches. This may give my childrens school away but i must say this. Our school did a fundraiser buyout so that there would be no fundraisers during the year then a week later they had a fubdraiser and two days after that they are selling tickets to another fundraiser. I know the school needs to get money to survive but parents giving so much and selling so much and having to buy so much from their kids is the reason that there are kids eating plain peanut butter because they cannot afford a school lunch. The economy is bad i know this but their has got to be a way for the schools to survive on minimal fundraisers etc because i have seen kids getting picked on because of no lunch money.So i agree with what FLYIN LION is saying about school system wasting money, some things are not required at schools such as leather chairs in the principals office especially if that was paid for by the school system when so many special services kids get left behind.Oh and sorry if i offend anyone but i do have the right to my opinion.

ok first of all some people do not get free and reduced lunches because they say they make to much but with rising cost of everything and to many school fundraisers there is no money for lunches second of all if the school would get their heads out of their behinds they would be able to afford more teachers, i am not stupid so yes extra class rooms will be used for storage i was only saying that with so many kids in classes they need to figure a way to use those classes and YES WITH TEACHERS IN THERE wise butt. School is for learning and when the some kids dont get the services they need there is no learning and apparently you dont know what its like to be that one kid who dont qualify for free or reduced lunches and is being made fun of for eating a peanut butter sandwhich while the rest eat regular meals. Yes and for the wise comment about that, I KNOW THAT i have volunteered at the school long enough to know quite a bit how it works not to mention i have kids in school in clay comm school system. Why dont they take the leather chair out of the principals office and all the fancy decorations and use that money to pay for kids who cant afford lunches and DO NOT QUALIFY. because i am sure there is alot of kids who fit in this category. Thank god my kids are not in this category because to many idiots in the school system think that this is fair. No wonder why there is so much fighting going on about clay community schools because arrogant jerks think they know all about the system and defend some of the dumb antics that goes on in the school system and supports the dumb antics. I am not saying clay community schools is a bad school system they just need some improvements as does all school systems.

no i was not talking about clay city when i spoke about empty rooms so yes there is more than one school with empty rooms and i agree with jenny moore.

Supporter posted:

Ok now the next part goes back to my good ol friend Leo. I cannot use the words that are coming to my mind in this blog so I will sensor it for everyone. You are mainly stating that we need to cut all the extra classes from the curiculum? So you are wanting to cut band, ag shop, auto shop, wood shop, and all the extra classes the state tells the school they do not need to teach. My first question to you is how many other schools do that? Those two classes you keep going back to and stateing that the school pays out $20000 for they really don't, because the teachers volunteer their time to teach those classes.

How many kids do you think would make it through school if they only had core classes to come to school for? How many kids do you think come to school because some of the extra classes they have that they think are fun. If you take those classes away how many kids do you think we would have wondering the streets of brazil without a diploma, probably alot more then we do now. The kids need some kind of incentive to go to school for. Even if it is a class that one kid thinks is fun, or another class that another kid thinks is fun.

Response:

First of all, I have not researched what CLASSes to cut, right now I'm looking at cutting extra-cirricular activities or finding another way to fund them with the taxpayer's approval.

"My first question to you is how many other schools do that?" is answered by "we may be the first."

"Those two classes you keep going back to and stateing that the school pays out $20000 for they really don't, because the teachers volunteer their time to teach those classes." Oh, really? Since I'm paying, as a taxpayer, a teacher's salary to teach five classes a day with a prep period, how can a teacher "volunteer" time that I'm paying for to do something else without neglecting the job that I'm paying for? If the classes are combined, the same question applies. I end up paying for something that is not worth the value that I am paying for because someone decided to do something else at the time. The teacher's time and salary is already committed. Now, if they want to stay after school and off the clock or teach the class somewhere else, I have no problem with that. But to "rob Peter to pay Paul" is stealing from all of their students, the school, the corporation, and the taxpayer, period. That we do not "pay for" any class is a fallacy or the school corporation could not report a cost without faulty accounting. Poppycock!

Perhaps, if we got back to educating instead of entertaining, we would be handing out more diplomas. We would not have as many students who quit due to discouragement because they do not understand the material and we do not have the teachers to help them. Perhaps, if we teach what is required for the diplomas offered instead of extra courses with low student interest, more students would actually graduate because they could learn what they needed to learn for the diploma.

So Leo you would expect your son to go to school that is like that? To learn only what is needed by the state? He doesnt take any other extra classes that he doesnt need by the state? Are you going to tell him he has to?

Lion,

I usually agree with your views, and for the most part, I still do. However, I personally think that some extra-curricular activities (ECAs) are valuable even if there is a cost to them. I'm not sure that we need as many as what we have, and just doing it because "everyone else" does it is a bad excuse.

I do feel that because there are minimum requirements that are in place for a student to be able to participate in ECAs, that maybe these ECAs may drive some students to be better students than what they would be without them. In some isolated cases, it may keep a student in school that otherwise wouldn't be motivated to do so.

Now are these absolutely necessary? No. But do they have some value? Yes. Could we do with less? Probably. I would list a few of the activities/teams we could do without, but then the discussion would turn away from the original issue.

Now should there be "user fees" tacked on for those who choose to participate, particularly for travel expenses? Probably. But I also don't want to see students who have genuine interest excluded because of a family being unable to pay.

I don't want to ramble on about the value of some ECAs, I just want to state that I do see some value in programs that are above and beyond what is the minimum requirement to educate a student.

However, I am in complete agreement with those who feel that the current building proposal is not the right one. Older elementary buildings should be replaced with a new facility that will allow manageable class sizes being maintained.

Virginiagrace:

My kids too have taken several of those multilevel classes. Though they aren't ideal, as the time is divided between levels, they do accomplish getting more students into their needed/desired classes when otherwise they wouldn't be able to take them at all. No I don't like them, but appreciate that teachers take this on in order to get the students into class they need. My daughter wants to major in foreign languages and it was VERY hard to get her schedule to accomodate both French and German. She had to give up other desired classes in order to do so. Another daughter took multiple science classes in addition to music. Hard to fit in but proven that study in one actually helps to develop ability to study the other [right brain vs left brain studies]. The 6 period day is just not enough for students to be all they can be as it causes many courses to only be offered one time a day and many of these are only offered concurrently during one period. There are still some students who are not getting all of the classes they want as they don't want the same things that the bulk of other students want. The coursebook says they are there but in reality the 6 period schedule doesn't allow them to actually be taken.

I disagree though with the elementary school closing issue however. Proximity to the school is a relative term and redistricting could be done so as to not make any school that far away. There are three elementary schools within the city limits and closing one of those would not cause the distance to become that much greater in any of those cases. If you measure the distance from some of the rural elementary schools in Clay county to their farthest students, I'll wager that the distance from any home within city limits is closer to any three of the public elementary schools in town.

The only quasi valid argument I have heard to oppose the closing of one of those schools is the fact that some parents don't have transportation to school for the annual conferences. That could be managed with volunteers and a sign up sheet for pick up as even a school bus making that route once a year would be far less expensive than keeping school open. It could also be a PTO service project to serve the students of that particular school.

Others have stated that changing a child's school when young is traumatic to a child....This is just not true. Plenty of children have to not only change schools but move themselves during their elementary years. Mine did and within one marking period they had adopted their new school as their own. The parents are actually the ones who get more upset at the notion of redistricting and their kids attending a different school. It's only when they present this to their children in a negative manner do the children have any lasting cause for concern.

I think we have arrived at that time of "last resort" so we can use the additional money we are spending on one superfluous building and administration for same and use it towards smaller primary grade classes and additional class period or trimester system in high schools in order to bring our corporation up to the standards of the other 91 of 92 counties in the state as we are only one of the two remaining who aren't at that level already. I just don't think most people realize how bad it is already. MANY OF OUR KIDS AREN'T GETTING WHAT OTHER COUNTIES ARE IN SPITE OF OUR GOOD TEACHERS AND STAFF DUE TO SOME OF THE DECISIONS OF THIS COMMUNITY AND ITS MEMBERS!!! Sorry for my "yelling" but this is a crisis situation. Past studies have already shown that we would be in better financial shape if we closed a school but leaving it open was what people wanted so corporation didn't. That is one of the luxuries we've been paying for when we couldn't afford to.

Please note that I am not blaming any one group in particular. It's the fault of all of us. The board for not doing what was fiscally correct at the time study was done due to pressure from those who voted them in, parents for not being aware of what they were giving up academically for their children by opposing a school closing, alums of the school for letting nostalgia for a building rating higher than education for today's students, and me for being on that committee and not making a louder noise when this was all squashed years ago. I was in fact dazed that all would ignore the numbers and was actually told by a teacher who was also on the committee that she would "NEVER" move her kids during their elementary years when I stated that my kids survived the move we had made several years before. Like I was some kind of an unfit mother for our family moving. Heck I know plenty of military families who move every few years and their kids are just fine too. Lots of data on this subject. Enough excuses...

The situation is CRITICAL. We need to look hard at the costs in this corporation and cut deeply to remove what is not needed and put that wasted money into the academic areas. Whether it is convincing the teachers union to look more seriously at the non teaching health care plan or pare down our buildings. We ALL need to go explore how we can impact this ourselves as just a few of us cannot accomplish this. As board members have said, it will take many of us to accomplish this.

We need to not only give our students the minimum required by law, but make the choices so that they are in better position to compete globally for future job market. The way things stand right now, many of them aren't even leaving prepared for the present job market as we are still managing under yesterday's mindset. It is only partially because of school board decisions in that some have made promises to keep schools open not even knowing the implications of doing so. That is only because the voters too have not yet realized the implications of doing so either.

I think my kids have been ready for college, but where I've seen deficits, I've sent my kids to take courses on line from IVY Tech or at local university while still in HS when they haven't been able to get what they wanted or needed. Not all can do this and they shouldn't have to if we had made the choices as a community so they could get what they needed here.

Even the kindergarten class size issue...I had seen what all day kindergarten had done for my older kids in another state so wouldn't accept that here that my younger ones only had 1/2 day so sent them to private kindergarten. In first grade there was a big gap between those who had only had 1/2 day. Now we have full day here but classes so large that students really aren't getting all the benefits of full day even though test scores indicate that all day with large class is better than 1/2 day with small class. We could have full day K with lower class size if we got rid of a building and had teachers union accept lower cost health care plan.

It comes down to what are you willing to do to get what you want as pockets aren't deep enough to have it all!!

Will you accept one less building? Will you go talk to a teacher about the details of the health care plan so maybe they will look more deeply into that issue during next contract talks? You cannot take it for granted that all is well and someone else will take care of these details as NO ONE HAS TO THIS POINT. If you don't do it, no one else will as the voice to keep the status quo has to this point been louder than the voice for change. No one can do it alone but together [to steal a quote from Obama campaign] YES WE CAN!

Daer Lord... You people need to focus on what you can change and stop this. Our kids need positive things! We have a lot of good things going on here in this county!!!!

Responses:

First of all, I would like to thank you for your thoughts and questions.

Supporter writes; "So Leo you would expect your son to go to school that is like that? To learn only what is needed by the state? He doesnt take any other extra classes that he doesnt need by the state? Are you going to tell him he has to?"

Yes, I would expect my son to go to school! Do you think that we teach any class now that is not authorized or recognized by the state? Everything that is taught is in accordance with state supervision. However, the state does not require us to teach everything that is on their list nor do we have to teach everything every semester. Our "elective" courses need to be "student interest" driven with a "cost-effective" point where low student interest determines that we not teach the class in those semesters. That is what most colleges do, but, of course, they cannot reach into the taxpayer's wallet.

Virginiagrace writes; "My daughter took 3 years of French in high school, taught by a teacher who had 3 levels in the classroom each year. The period was divided into thirds, with two levels studying or doing papers while it was the other levels teaching time. She tested out of 3 years of college level French at IU.

What this says is that the situation is even worse than I imagined. Instead of two classes being taught at one time by one teacher, we have three. So, in that classroom, each student gets one third of the instruction time that we pay for and a study hall.

Congratulations to your daughter on her success! Maybe more former students would succeed like her if they were given the full period of instruction in French at all levels.

>>> I have a problem with closing elementary schools. Young children need to be in a school that is fairly close to home. That is why the schools are situated as they are. Closing a school must be done only as a last resort.

Meridian and Eastside are less than a mile apart, straight line distance. One point zero six miles on the road due to Meridian Street being one-way northbound. Projected travel time between them is three minutes. Your argument that students need to live close to their school falls apart without looking any farther, students that attend these schools travel farther than the distance between them, and that is without even looking at the rest of the schools. Look at Clay City!

Actually, much of our education system, throughout the nation, is based on what went on before. It bears the same relationship to history as the width of our roads and railroads do to the Roman Empire's roads. (Roman roads were build just wide enough so that a two horse team would not have to walk in the ruts of the vehicle in front of them. The wheels of carts were spaced just wider than a two horse team. Early American roads were built the same and standard railroad gauge is the same, even though the reasoning is no longer valid.)

I, too, have a problem with closing schools. Believe me, it IS the last resort. We simply cannot afford to operate the way that we have been and educate in the 21st century.

According to the monument on the grounds, Meridian stands on school grounds that have been such since the 1800's. Eastside was built between 1954 and 1965 and I am not sure about the history of the location. Have you ever heard of the Jackson Street School that I have heard served the southwest corner of Brazil? I have been told that a school once stood where CARS is now located. That most children walked to school when these buildings were built is probably a reasoning that they were located as they are, but it is no longer valid. I think that you have to live within four or six blocks of the school or transportation is provided.

>>>>" Clay Community Schools is a great corporation." I happen to like it, after all, I am a product of it. It is a not a "great" corporation; we rank 207th in the state in graduation rate, and we are only three tenths of a percentage point above the state average. We do not rank in the top ten in any area measured that indicates performance. This means that even our "great" school corporation has a lot of room to improve!

Highest 10

1 Burris Laboratory School 100.0

2 IN Acad for Sci Math Humanities 99.1

3 Lanesville Community School Corp 98.0

4 School Town of Munster 95.7

5 Barr-Reeve Com Schools Inc 95.1

6 New Prairie United School Corp 94.9

7 Zionsville Community Schools 94.9

8 Loogootee Community Sch Corp 94.4

9 Eastern Howard School Corp 94.2

10 Southern Hancock Co Com Sch Corp 94.2

207 Clay Community Schools 76.8

ClayCountyGuy and BRUTHER wrote about extra-curricular activities (ECA's).

ECA's, traditionally, have a place in our educational system but they are not required by law. ECA's can motivate students who might quit or make lower grades to stay in school and make better grades. ECA's cost money.

That being said, I have to say that I am for keeping the ECA's as long as academics to not starve for money. I don't like the thought of "user fees" as this eliminates many of the very students that need more motivation to stay in school and make good grades. I do not like the lack of equality between our schools in the area of ECA's as to what is offered. (I hate to think of the uproar that this statement is going to cause, but it needs to come out and be dealt with.) If we are spending enough money on ECA's to lessen academics, we need to find other ways to fund all of them equally across our corporation as student participation indicates their cost-effectiveness. If we could transfer the costs of the ECA's out of existing funds to a referendum tax fund levy, with the taxpayers' permission, we could afford to have a teacher in every classroom and we might be able to operate all of our elementary schools; ut we would have more money to improve education within the corporation.

WE NEED TO ADAPT TO TODAY'S WORLD, OVERCOME THE OBSTACLES TO PROGRESS AND EDUCATE FUTURE GENERATIONS. More than that, we need to overcome our FEAR of change!

Perhaps people are barking up the wrong tree with solutions. Maybe momof3 has a better solution. If you don't like what is happening, try volunteering at the elementary level. Those kids are our future right? They will eventually be making the decisions. If you want change, Be the change you want to see (Ghandi) If you are having problems getting the classes you want then, get in there and help the others find the same solutions you did. Just because it is not going your way doesn't mean that there isn't a way. You are not in Kansas anymore. You are in Brazil, In.

Lion, I'm against "user fees" also. What I was meaning to say; that if it were the difference between having an ECA or not having it, then that would be something we might have to consider. I also went on to state that I didn't want any students left out because of those fees. But if we want every available penny to go towards education, then its difficult to fit ECAs into that argument.

Please don't misunderstand...I support ECAs, well most of them anyway, and I want them to continue as they are currently. But if we're going to maintain that hardline argument of most education for the money, then I think there is a debate to be had in that regard (of user fees).

Lion, I think you are genuine in your concerns and I share many of them.

Jenny, you make alot of sense to me as well.

Jenny

I take offense to your remarks to UNOIT

She has put 4 kids through our schools and she DOES get it.Just beacsue not everyone rants and raves to all doesn't mean she isnt doing what is best for her kids.

I am glad you have opinions. Just don't brow beat others for not sharing them!

Kbabe

Thanks for the support. My mouth gets me in more trouble than I can deal with!

I agree.... let's talk about what is good with CCSC. I have 2 daughters in the system and am happy to report that the ECA are what keeps my oldest child motivated. She has to make grades and be in attandance and does so becasue she likes Guard. How can anyone think that cutting this would be good? My youngest is very excited about doing volleyball at the elementary level. How is this funded you say? OH... it's not. The teacher VOLUNEERS her time. What could be a better example of what is right with our schools??? Teachers volunteering to give their time!

THANK YOU! All of you who go above and beyond make me so proud to live here!

The Lion is Agitated?

Good !

WAIT.........STOP

Let me take a few minutes to write and submit anothr blog article as to what is good about the corporation, please.

That way, people can see what we are talking about.

Yes, an article about what is right with the schools would be a nice change of pace

How about:

WAIT .... STOP

Let's do something (anything) constructive and NOT start another BLOG !!!

>>>>The Lion is Agitated?

>>>>Good !

-- Posted by Gunslinger on Tue, Sep 16, 2008, at 10:03 AM

Gunslinger, why is it good?

>>>>>>If I am making a red velvet cake and my recipe calls for buttermilk..I go to the stores around here and there is no buttermilk to be found...I will either go to a store in Terre Haute or Greencastle or I will make my own at home using milk and vinegar. That is called options.

Another good thought....CCSC has Nova Net.

-- Posted by unoit on Tue, Sep 16, 2008, at 11:14 AM

Okay, "option" instead of "suggestion". Something I learned in Business Administration, "You always have the option of doing nothing" and "if all of your options are equal, your decision is easy to make. All you have to do is flip a coin. Rarely, if you actually look at the situation, are the options and outcomes equal." In your example, you could to choose to make no cake at all, make a cake for which you had ingredients on hand, or make another dessert. What the school corporation does is spend money to provide an education to the students. There are many options there…….lol.

NovaNet, now, that appears to be a very good option. I have looked into it and talked somewhat length with Tim Rayle about it. If we can find the money, I'd like to put it's sister program, SuccessMaker Enterprise, incorporated in our K-8 education and expand NovaNet down to the sixth grade. It was designed for 6-12.

For more info on Success Maker:

http://www.pearsonschool.com/index.cfm?P...

NovaNet:

http://www.pearsonschool.com/index.cfm?l...

oh, and now we're talking! I would like to see novanet expanded....now that's positive thinking.

That is what I am trying to say....one size doesn't fit all or you can't always get what you want... you might not always have everything you need in one place...anyway, not everyone is going to be happy. Things haven't always worked out as I planned in life either, so for me, I think it shows your character in how you deal with the things that don't go your way. You find another way to achieve your goals. The best of both worlds could be to provide what we can, and have options for those that need a different route. When I needed a certain college class that I couldn't afford at ISU, I took the same class at Ivy Tech for almost half the cost...I found a way to get the class I needed and could afford, I was grateful that I had an option. I am grateful that we have so many colleges nearby to have a choice. where theres a will theres a way as my dad used to say. I will probably get flamed for this...but I think we spend too much time today trying to make it a perfect world for our kids and not letting them problem solve.

I dont think she meant that the way you took it. I know as a parent I would just like to FIX things for my kids. But by doing that I have not taught them to FIX things themselves. They need the skills and too often we just do and go on

Sassypants and Unoit,

I have the "here, let me show you" problem too. I think it is a "parent" thing. I realized that I had it when my son was in elementary school, I think, about third grade. He had grown so used to me helping with his homework that he had came to expect me to be right there every second and to correct every problem and question before he went to the next one. I had to back off.

I then found out that a student no longer has to read assignments. Most of the questions are about things that are highlighted in the text. That's great for getting the right answers, but a poor way to train someone to find what is important in the text or how to read. Just too easy.

Sassy.....I bet you catch it for that quote! If I remember correctly "bman" is an Obama hater. Maybe he doesn't check the sites concerning (in a round about way) education. Oops....I just made a liar out of myself after I told you at the "shop" on Wednesday that I wasn't making comments any more, just reading everyone else's. So much for me remaining silent!!!!

Wow I always thought Leo Soutworth was a pen name. I am shocked he is real.