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Just what exactly does Pro life mean?Posted Sunday, October 19, 2008, at 9:50 AM
This is a hot button issue of any campaign. Of course there's the politicalmeaning, that all abortions should be illegal as it kills a human being. But is that the full extent of its true meaning?
First we must determine why anyone would think a child to be an "optional" item. They are quite costly I'll admit, to both pocket book and pocket watch and even when one thinks that they want control over the size of their family due to finances or timing, they should always be valued as the miracles they are when they do come along. Then there is what religion and society express as the norm of having a partner of some sort before raisinga child. While I don't know how some manage without spousal support [hats off to single parents everywhere], why do we think that an error in judgment resulting in the miracle of a child as bad? Especially when many participate in the same act but are not judged unless that miracle occurs? Then of course both in this society and others around the world we have the double whammy of not only a child being like an item to possess when convenient, we also have situations where the woman herself is considered less unworthywhether by abuse or the "norm" of culture. This leads us into having to expand the pro life issue into the greater portion of life after birth since many only discuss the issue of its sanctity before birth. If we look around the world where else can we see decisions being made for or against the sanctity of human life? A higher percentage of those who live in the United States are fortunate than in some other countries. Yes, we have a poor economy, high unemployment, a health care system that is better for some than others, imperfect justice system, and public schools available to all, no matter how flawed. Not a perfect country, but a lot better than many others. So why do we still need to have abortions available? Because we are a pluralistic society and not all have the same value system as we…No, I am not saying that some don't think abortion is killing, I'm saying that some still find it okay to rape little children, marry girls off to men in cults, abuse them, neglect them, brainwash them so they do not know the difference between lust and affection. Some do not believe that sexual relations are something to be saved for a lifetime mate and are overwhelmed by the hormonal impulses God also has given us so more of His children will be made. Some are too ignorant to know that there are methods available to reduce the rate of pregnancy. Some suffer from poverty, poor health care, illegal slavery. The fact is that if these were "fixed" we would see fewer abortions even if they remained legal. The issue isn't their legality. The issue is why people feel theyneed them. I can remember when they were illegal. Frequently two people died instead of one. Then there are isolationists who are only worried about the neighbors they know. When did God say we are only responsible for Americans? Remember that GoodSamaritan story? The United Nations has been part of pro life and human rights issues around the world as have various religious organizations. We are one of many who have supported thiswork. The UN Population Fund has helped to moderate the policy in China that states one family one child that is sometimes enforced via abortion. The same fund has provided birth control for women in Africa who have no say in their abstinence from intercourse but need to space their babies for the health of both them and their other children who depend on them. In the case of some areas of the world, the use of condoms is the woman's only protection against HIV which many times wipes out the parents, leaving the children without any caregiver, for if a husband dies, the wife is taken into his brother's family as a second wife. With no condom use, HIV is spread throughout all the adults in the family and to the children via childbirth and nursing. So now our "pro life" president is "discreetly" cutting UN funding for birth control supplies. So whether from HIV or just wearing out from constant pregnancy and nursing that starts young, how can leaving children motherless be pro life? How can enforcing laws in order to control an exploding population and not providing birth control to women in China be pro life? Then there is war. Are we trigger happy when it comes to getting our way to the point that we aren't being pro life towards our soldiers as well as to localcivilians? Are we saving more lives by going to war or are we just considering the importance of enforcing our way of life onto others? Have our actions with regard to the invasion of Iraq been pro life? War can sometimes be the only answer to stop others from killing but why then were we not in Rwanda and Darfur where genocide was rampant instead of in Iraq where, though a dictatorship, there was a form of government and order. There weren't piles of bodies in the streets as there have been in Africa from famine, illness, and genocide? Why do some leaders think it's better to go into another's country with a "big stick" so by our show of force they will agree to our terms instead of trying to discuss the issue first? Can't we always go to the stick if the talks fail? What have we lost by not trying diplomacy? President Bush the elder sent military into Kuwait as it had been invaded by Iraq and drove them back out…then stopped as any further would have been an invasion itself. Did his son and some others not understand this? Then there is the other end of the spectrum… God gave us those commandments that said thou shallnot kill. But our society tells us it's ok to kill if they arejudged by us humans to be real bad. Since when did we become God? When did we gain that right to take life at any point? When did we even determine that our legal system was so perfect and never made mistakes? Some will say the Bible states that we must protect the innocent but the Bible also says that we must not wear a shirt made from a blended fabric. We must read the Bible in both a historical sense as well as a guide for life. Any Biblical scholar will tell you that the passages were written by human beings in a time where the authors were attempting to create a situation by which a specific, many times isolated, society could live in harmony with many specific details than were generally applicable in any other community or time. Just by the way that different books contradict each other should tell us that we are not to take each little detail literally but use it as a guide to live in harmony with our fellow man. The Old Testamentsays eye for an eye but do we practice that? No, because when Jesus came, he superseded the Old Testament down to two rules. Love God above all and Love others as yourself. Why do we even dwell on the issue of abortion being legal or not? Making abortion illegal isn't what's going to stop them nor does keeping them legal by man's laws say that we have to have them. Just because alcohol is legal doesn't mean we have to drink it. Let's look at the real reason for abortions worldwide and shift gears to work together to constructivelyreduce the need for them. Ask yourself which politicians support Mr. Bush's recent actions and which supports the UN funding to help women worldwide. Which candidates are looking at capital punishment and into the mistakes that have been made known due to DNA testing that have put innocent people behind bars and on death row? Which candidates are even aware of the recent UN report that shows how our abstinence only education in the US has resulted in more abortions per capita than in other countries that havea lot more sexual activity among teenagers? Which senators have a platform of investing more dollars into our education system in order that more people will have better jobs tosupport a family without welfare? We are quick to want perfectionwhere our religious ideals are the norm but we are humans and that is not possible. The pro life issue is a complex one and the political forum has oversimplified it and lumped it all together under the topic of the legal status of abortion when it is really much more. Even those who make the church's wishes known are but human and are imperfect human beings. Maybe it is time to talk to God directly and seek out what He means by pro life and not what is politically popular in one group or another. Your church community thinking you wrong may be a burden but it would be much worse if you were told you made the wrong decision by God Himself. We all agree that a person's decision that results in taking another's human life is not pro life. We can all agree that no politicianhas a perfect record with regard to all pro life issues. Which ones come closest though in the most areas of pro life? How do we know which questions to ask, what keyword to "Google" to find out? Written with information from: Nicholas Kristof http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/opinio... David D. Kirkpatrick http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/... Charles M. Blow http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/06/opinio... Roman Catholics for Obama http://www.romancatholicsforobama.com/ Innocence project Comments Showing most recent comments first [Show in chronological order instead] |
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Localguy,
You have my respect. Thank you for serving!
I apologize to some in advance for the length of this post but certain comments made by some people locally have brought me to the point I feel I have to write this. It is directed partly at Jenny, but I have heard several other people make similar statements. It is not meant to enrage nor offend, simply to share another viewpoint.
Jenny,
I fail to see how bringing the war in Iraq into a discussion about a legal and moral issue in this country is relevant. Yes the life of all human beings are important, even the ones we don't like or don't know personally. But the issue of pro life/pro choice in regards to a woman's right to choose is a debate that has raged for many years, and will more than likely be an issue when my children are adults.
I agree with localgal (no relation to me and not responsible for any comments made by me). If we want progress on an issue let's deal with one at a time.
You point to President Bush and the republican party like they created all these issues. It has been the ignorance and misjudgements of men and women from both policital parties strung out over decades to create many of the problems we are seeing and dealing with now, and it will take that long to fix many of them. Until we as a people stand up, take responsiblity for what we do and hold ourselves and our leaders accountable for our actions things will not change. This nation was once respected for it's responsiblity, generosity and unity as a people, if it's not that way now it's because we all have let it become so.
But as one of those in uniform, I ask that if you are going to make statements about what's going on with the current war in Iraq to make sure you are correct and have the facts. If you get all your information from the media on what's going on over there I guarantee that you are not getting all the facts, as they are only painting a one sided picture.
I can tell you this, we are making a difference in Iraq. the progress may be slow but it's there, you won't see most of it on the news. Yes there have been many casualties, but nowhere near the numbers as in past wars. The general population of this nation has forgotten what sacrifice, responsiblity (personal or otherwise), courage, honor, commitment and what it means to be a citizen. Everything has become convenient and when we don't like something we can just pass the responsibilty on to someone else and make it their problem. And if we get our nose bloodied and people get hurt it's time to pack up and say sorry but you aren't worth our help, we are going home. What if we had done that in WW I, WW II, Korea and countless other wars in the past? The sacrifices made by so many would mean nothing. You have your freedoms and rights because of them. If we had just packed up and went home when Hitler was marching across Europe because we got hurt and people were killed, it would have only been a matter of time before he was knocking on our door and we would have went at it alone. You quite possibly could be calling our leader the Furher and our flag could have been the swastika. But our leadership saw that diplomacy wasn't going to work, it was time to stand up and fight. To say it was a difficult decision would be a massive understatement. But it was the right one. It was also not made by one man. It was decided on by our elected leaders in Congress, the Senate and the President. It's the only way a decision like that could be made. Just as that decision to go into Iraq was made, not by one man.
Under some administrations when our nose was bloodied and we got hurt, they said come home. Look at those places now, no government, widespread violence and people suffering.
When good people do nothing, evil prevails.
We accept a certain amount of risk when we put on this uniform. We essentially write a blank check to the American people for the amount of "up to and possibly including our lives". We don't want to die, but we know it's possible. But it's our choice to volunteer, no one made us put on the uniform and we know the risks (anyone who joins the military and says they didn't know there is a possibility to see conflict of some sort is a fool). I have done this for almost 20 years now and served under both republican and democrat alike. One political party is no more likely to start a war than the other, and if we are to be exact the demcratic party was in charge at the start of and during WW II (Roosevelt and Truman), Korea (Truman) and Vietnam (Kennedy and Johnson) all times of war not started by America. We also did not start the conflict in Iraq, that was a problem that had existed for years. A choice was made to intervene and it was that choice that brought us to the current war, no amount of diplomacy would have gotten Sadam Hussein to stop torturing or killing his own people or pressured him to step down. His country had been beaten into submission for so long that the people no longer had the will to fight for themselves for fear of retalion against their families. There was no possibility of hope for those people, unless they had help. We did not choose to be attacked on September 11th by terrorists, but we were and are now working very hard to remove that threat. No amount of diplomacy would have prevented these conflicts. There are sometimes when you must stand and fight.
Most of us that serve do it because we believe in this country and what it stands for, we train to fight and pray that war never comes. We take an oath when we enlist, here is what it says:
I, (name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
They aren't just words, we take them seriously. We don't care whether a democrat or republican or independent holds the office, when they are responsible and do not assume the mantle of power eagerly or with disregard of who put them there.
Not just in Iraq, but in several places around this world there are people that wish to cause harm to this country, not just the military but to it's citizens. No amount of diplomacy will make them change their minds. They are only pro-life for their their cause, everyone else exists to further their goals. We are here for that reason, and I can tell you that the former leader in Iraq was one of those people. Maybe you don't like how it was done, but at some point it was going to happen. It doesn't matter who is President or what party they belong to, those evil people are out there. It's not a scare tactic but a statement of fact. War is horrible, and sometimes there are not any other options available.
We put on this uniform and stand between you and the evil in this world. We are that line in the sand.
You all have your rights and freedoms because good men and women stand up for you. Because in some cases if we don't meet the problems outside our borders sooner or later it will come here looking for us. You all have seen what happened on Sept. 11th, evil came looking for us, and many lives were lost. It's still out there looking for opportunities to hurt us, and we will be there to stop it. But if we wait for it to come here, the consequences could be much more grave.
in closing I will leave you with this.
Before you cast the blame on one man for the war, the economy, and so many other things in America remember how our government works it takes all three branches of government to make decisions. And we put them there. If it were just one man making all the decisions you would not be living in America. No man or woman is perfect, but to cast blame on one when many are responsible is wrong.
It amazes me how much "external debate" is pulled in to the simple question, is terminating a pregnancy terminating a life? Is it still a life if the government can't support it? Is is still a life if a war is happening? Is it still a life if criminals are executed? Is it still a life if a political party is in office?
We are so far away from dealing with one issue at one time I believe we will never make any head way on important issues. Winning a political debate is way more important to us than doing the right thing. What ever happened to personal responsibility, acceptance of outcomes of choices we make and teaching ourselves and our children to think before we act?
Karebabe:
..And what are we doing when we bomb civilians in Iraq and call them collateral damage? The children there are worth just as much to God as the ones in this country. Killing is killing. Never mind all the soldiers from both sides who end up in body bags. When a government official decides he is for going to war he is sentencing people to death. When a government official stops aid for women's health organization that causes her ultimate death and absence of care for her children [even the unborn ones within], that is sentencing people to death. So many choose to remain blind to the killing we are ordering our soldiers to do, the ruination of our own soldier's lives due to what they have to go through doing it, and then many times not providing support for both the soldier and civilians so that they can deal with the aftermath. WAR is not pro life. You and I are both I believe have made our decisions with regard for human life in mind. We've both had to choose a candidate. You chose the candidate who says he's against the legalization of abortion. Nothing wrong with that. Doing that you support the candidate who prefers domination and force and supported our current war and all it's death and destruction that goes with it. [over 40, 000 people minimum have died so far in Iraq alone]. On top of that who knows how many that have died due to genocide as using our military in Iraq made us unable to save those in the Sudan and the Congo etc.
I made the choice to go with the person who was against this war and has stated he would rather work more closely with allies in a more temperate fashion than to make "preemptive strikes". Yes he is not against the legalization of abortion but in my mind I have made my decision by the exact same process as you. I feel that I can save more lives by helping to get Obama into office than if McCain were to be elected. One of them will win and that person will be the president for both of us. Neither one will be perfect and neither one will do all that he has promised. We must both pray that his hand is guided when he's in office so that his actions will more reflect his Christian faith than those of our current president who has caused so much death during his term...and who by the way though against legalization of abortion has
1] not stopped them
2] enforced abstainance only education which we now know has caused MORE abortions in this country.
3] Has alienated our allies so much that they are no longer willing to work with us even with regard to peace keeping missions.
4] has removed aid to UN projects for woman's health in Africa and China, resulting in even more death and motherless children.
Let us hope the next one does a little better following his faith in the true sense of the word at least and not just imposing his judgment on the cultures of others, including those here in the US. These are ALL human rights issues and to say only one is important is not being honest. we both made choices that are less than perfect and each of us will have to live with those choices and Yes both choices are valid within the teachings of the Catholic Church according to the bishop's guide.
Jenny ~
Please reference back cover of the Criterian 10/31/08 ~ I still will adhere to the Church's teachings ~ killing innocent children (& unborn) is, and hopefully, will never be acceptable to our Faith ~ so feel free to reference whatever you want ~ your argument will not now or ever be good enough ~
No not quite in mouth, I was just surprised that karebabe didn't mention the official guideline of the website. Just shows that even within one single religion it's all in the interpretation of the individual and THAT is what the Bishops' official guide indicates. Each comes to where they are from what they've experienced in life and what stuck with them and impressed them most.
The bishops' guide tells one to look into themselves and into all the issues and if the majority of the issues are in accordance to the teachings, that is the candidate to go with. Each of us will then come away with their own interpretations of teachings to rate each candidate. There is no way, as I quoted from the Criterian, that ANY candidate is going to meet up with all criteria of the Church, heck not even our clergy meet EVERY criteria as they are human as well. Something the press doesn't want to admit when reporting on abuse. Percentage of abusive priests is no higher than in total population, it's just something that sells papers when reported upon.
We each just have to realize that each person has a responsibility to vote their conscience and should not be judged by other imperfect humans for their decisions. I hate the fact that babies are aborted. I also hate the fact that thousands of people are victims of genocide, slavery, war, and abuse. How many more people are affected by one or the other??? Something that is hard to count and terrible that each one of us has been put in the position to have to make that call.
Some have come to one conclusion and some another. I respect you for your decision for you have hopefully thought about all the issues and come up with your "score" for each candidate.
We should probably be less critical of each other and go after those who will not take responsibility for a decision and not vote at all as like the candidates not ever being perfect for the church, we are never going to be exactly the same either but we still are children of God on this earth as He made us. We will only know who really made the right choice when we reach those gates. Have a good day.
looks like someone stuck thier foot in their mouth on that one didn't ya' Ms. Moore. I happen to be Catholic too... I just wanted to let you know before you attack my religous views... Oh and McCain~Palin 08'!!!!
You presume wrong ~ & I referred to the teachings of the Catholic Church ~ & I have read all materials that you so happily decided to explain to me ~ but thank you for your interpretation ~ I do take voting very seriously ~ & I also strongly take into account my upbringing in the Church when voting ~
Karebabe:
I can only presume that you are not Catholic as you would know that the Catholic Church does not come out with official support of one or the other on this issue though multiple people who are also Catholic do give their opinion on the matter. The site you quote does not say to vote for one candidate or the other. And if you download the complete "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship", The huge pdf document from the Catholicvote.com site it clearly states that Human Life, Family Life, Social Justice, and Global Solidarity ALL have to be taken into consideration by the Catholic with regard to their support for a candidate.
In addition, _The Criterian_, the Indiana Catholic Newspaper this week printed the following as further guidance for the Catholic voter,
"...Cardinal Ratzinburger now Pope Benedict XVI, wrote, specifically referring to abortion, 'When a Catholic does not share a candidate's stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted if there are appropriate reasons.'
This past July, Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahoney was asked in an interview about whether a good Catholic could in good faith vote for a Democrat.
Cardinal Mahoney replied: 'There is nobody running for office at any level who is with the Church on every single issue. We have to weigh the various goods and consider what's best for our people, and then each of us has to decide who is better going to represent the many concerns we have.'
Whether one agrees with them or not, these are weighty authorities whose guidance can be safely followed in such moral judgments.
Their insights can help resolve many questions about conscience formation, which, as the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_ notes, is 'a lifelong task [#1784].
Furthermore, all this is simply good traditional ethics. Without going through all these moral technicalities, I believe most people of good will, Catholic or not, almost intuitively use this process for making important distinctions and decisions." end of quote.
So this leaves each one of us the unpleasant task of trying to weigh one negative policy against another to see which candidate's add up to be more or less objectionable. Personally, the hawk views and decisions of Bush that McCain STILL supports that have resulted in almost 40,000 deaths in Iraq, the lack of support in Darfur where open genocide, slavery, and the drafting of young boys into warfare has been occurring, the discontinuing of support for woman's health care project in Africa, the limited health care plan that reduces medicare benefits now in place, and the lack of interest in any possible future modifications of the capital punishment system in light of the multiple wrongful death sentences,and unwillingness to work more amiably with our allies and adversaries towards a more peaceful world, far outweigh the legality of abortion in those 4 areas stated by the bishops. IMHO
Again, yes I do not like the fact that there are abortions occurring in the world but
1] McCain becoming President is not going to make them illegal
2] Even if illegal some would find a way to have one and then two lives would be put at risk
3] Obama becoming president is not going to make abortions mandatory in the USA as they many times are when programs like the one run by UN that President Bush just pulled funding from are not available to women in China and in other parts of the world.
Add up the potential deaths and damage caused by where EACH candidate stands on all the issues. That is what the official Catholic stand is and has told each of its followers that only THEY can make the decision by following their own conscience. Guest articles in The _Criterian_ cover both sides of this issue and I would recommend reading it to anyone of any faith in order to make a thoughtful and ethical decision in the upcoming election.
We can at least agree that voting is a serious issue and it takes much thought, research, prayer, and soul searching in order to make the right decision.
Have a good day.
It is interesting to me that your resources included 'Roman Catholics for Obama' but not Catholicvote.com ~ excluding your Church's teachings?? Looks like it to me.............
Choose Life:
We agree that all life should be protected but who is to say what the beginning is...Not that the child doesn't begin at conception but if we don't provide health care and other economic and educational options for the mother carrying the child, how is that providing for her unborn child? Whether abortion is legal or not, she may choose to have one if she feels that she cannot afford to care for her child. We can't "fix" one and not the other as the issues are so intermingled. It's been documented that more abortions occur when certain other socioeconomic issues aren't attended to properly. You have to look at a candidate's complete pro life stance from conception to old age. How can we only look at the unborn child and ignore the thousands of men,women, and children who die due to the decisions our politicians make and WE actually are making when we vote them into office? You state we need to start at the beginning but I say that the child or woman in our armed forces,Iraq, Africa, Inner city Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, are all just as equal in value to the unborn child so we must look at ALL the pro life issues and try to determine which candidate protects the most lives. When one decides to vote for a candidate only because of their stand on the legality of abortion and not all the issues, they are wearing blinders and disregarding the lives of so many others. The little unborn child is precious to our eyes, but to God, all are equal in worth. Tallying up ALL the pro life issues is the only way to save more lives. Voting for someone who is for returning abortion into an illegal procedure does not even mean they can accomplish that task. Putting someone into office who can set a tone of peace, respect, a more equal socioeconomic world, is more likely to set an example of pro life in all areas when decisions are being made throughout their term in office.
I think it is important to start at the beginning. If we are to change a culture of decision to take innocent life then we should start at the beginning. The unborn are the truly innocent and all life from beginning to end should be protected in all circumstances.
I encourage everyone to check out the links to the blog above--lots of information that will make you stop and think. Things are not as black and white as some of the political pundits would have you believe. Is it right to declare yourself pro-life but not fund health care to children and pregnant women? To force women to have unwanted children because we only want astinence only sex education in the schools? Is it right to be pro-life but for capital punishment? Is it right to declare yourself pro-life and be for war where many innocent people are caught in the crossfire? No, I am not a bleeding-heart liberal but someone who realizes that there are many shades to the issue of pro-life vs pro-choice, and before one decides where one stands, THINK beyond just "life begins at conception--period". It gets too complicated for simplistic one-size-fits-all thinking.
What an excellent Blog! I really enjoyed reading this and it's so nice that you were honest enough to state all sides of the issue! I agree that abortion is murder, no two ways about that fact. As a woman who at a very sinful time of her life chose to believe the LIE that they tell you about "Well, if you do it early , its not REALLY a life." I am haunted daily and the depression that ensued from my decision still effects my life in ways NO ONE ever CARED to tell me about. Yes, its about a woman's right to choose. A right to choose to obey "Thou SHALT NOT KILL" or the right to live so frivolously wrapped up in your own self centered world that you in essence, become your own god. Don't believe what those "counselors" tell you when you walk in that clinic. They are there to take advantage of you with a tongue full of lies and a heart full of death. Choose Life. YOURS AND YOUR BABIES.
Thanks again for this issue and Blog! Kudos to you!